When to use what Schatten-$p$ norm in deep learning?
Thomas Pethick
Abstract
Schatten-$\infty$ based optimizers such as Muon have shown promising empirical performance, but there remains seemingly conflicting observations regarding whether they are beneficial. We resolve this conflict by showing that the conclusion is regime dependent. Even when the objective is smooth in the Schatten-$\infty$ geometry, smaller Schatten-$p$ geometries can be optimal, specifically in the low-dimensional regime, which we show includes Chinchilla scaling. This conclusion follows from a new noise-robust acceleration result for the SODA framework for $p>2$. The same analysis explains why Muon-like methods do not require warmup, why they naturally favor large batches, and yields a batch size scaling rule for arbitrary $p$.
Topics
Classified with taxonomy v2 on Sat, 5 Sept 2026.